2022.06.19"我们的儿子想当兵"：对乌克兰第一夫人的采访

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“Our son wants to be a soldier”: an interview with Ukraine’s first lady
Olena Zelenska on the war, homeschooling and Russia’s hit squads

Jun 19th 2022 (Updated Jun 21st 2022)

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By Oliver Carroll

The barbed wire, sandbags and sniper positions of Ukraine’s presidential compound make a dramatic backdrop for a photoshoot. But Olena Zelenska looks drained when she appears, wearing a flowing, electric-blue suit and clutching a pair of high heels to don for the photos. Ukraine’s first lady admits to being a reluctant interviewee.

The contrast with her media-hungry, jollier half is obvious. But her mood picks up when a familiar, husky voice roars from behind an open door: “I heard you were in the building.” The president smiles as he appears, then hardens at the sight of journalists, whom he seemingly wasn’t expecting. For five minutes, the photoshoot becomes the Volodymyr Zelensky show. “I wanted to see my wife, and now you’re making me work,” he quips to me, before turning for the camera. “You want our faces too, not only our backs?”


It was always going to be an adventure with Volodymyr, says Zelenska, from the moment he and two friends simultaneously proposed to Zelenska and two of her friends, when they were all travelling together in a white minibus as twenty-somethings. “Girls listen, we’ve had a chat, and this is what’s going to happen,” is how Zelenska, now 44, remembers his pitch. The high-school sweethearts had already been dating for eight years, but it wasn’t love at first sight, Zelenska says. She isn’t sure that she even liked him at the start: “He was just a boy I knew, someone I saw change from seventh grade to eleventh grade.” The two were united by their sense of humour (hers was better than his, she says) and a common group of friends who later formed Kvartal 95, the entertainment company that made Volodymyr famous. There was no question of Zelenska agreeing or not to the minibus proposal, let alone anyone getting on their knees: “It was fate, and all of that.” The three couples ended up getting married a week apart in the summer of 2003.

She was impressed by his daily videos – but thought they should have been half the length

They had grown up alongside each other in Kryvyi Rih, an industrial city in southern Ukraine, now near the front line of the war. She remembers romantic summers spent with Volodymyr and their friends, listening to music and hanging out by the river. Their choice of a career in comedy – she wrote the scripts, Volodymyr performed – later propelled them to the bright lights of Kyiv, which has since become their home. It was there that her husband, having played the part of a teacher-turned-president in a popular tv series, “Servant of the People”, launched his audacious bid to become the real president in 2019. They could never have expected what was going to happen to Ukraine. “We were naive,” she says. “We thought that we could win through honest work and graft. It turned out to be a lot more complicated than that.”

It was still dark when Zelenska woke up on February 24th 2022, thinking that she’d heard fireworks. Her husband was already in the room next door, fully clothed. “It’s started,” he said, and immediately left. It was Zelenska’s task to tell her nine-year-old son Kyrylo, and 17-year-old daughter Oleksandra, what was happening. She told herself she mustn’t cry as she walked down the corridor, quaking. But when she got to the kids’ rooms she realised they were already awake and “knew everything”.


She told them to get ready for a trip to the countryside: “I had to show that everything was just great, cool, that it was an adventure.” By that evening the three of them were in a secret location far from the capital; her cheeks hurt after a day of fake smiles.

The first lady says she survived the early days on a mix of adrenaline and Valerian before the latter ran out. She tried not to think about her husband being named as target number one for Russian hit squads – or about herself and her children being target number two. The “professionals” would do what was necessary to keep them all safe: “I understood that I understood nothing, but was responsible for the kids and needed to react to the situation.” Like Ukrainians across the country, the presidential family suddenly divided along gender lines. He donned military green and showed his battle face to the world. She kept her private vigil, tending to the home front.


Every time the sirens wailed Zelenska and her children would rush down to the bomb shelter; up and down, up and down again. She couldn’t sleep, and often watched her nine-year-old as he napped or played on his phone. One time she dozed off only to be woken by her son. “Mum,” he said, “time to go to the shelter.” Many of her friends – actors and writers – signed up for Ukraine’s army and territorial defence. When her husband introduced martial law, banning any man aged 18-60 from leaving the country, many women fled with their children; others, like her, found a wartime role away from the front.

“Civilisation is a thin film, torn very quickly. It’s frightening to realise that it’s not shared by people living alongside us, not shared by the monsters of Bucha”

Civilisation is a “thin film torn very quickly,” says Zelenska. Her immediate fear about what the Russians might do – to her family, to her country – turned into a dawning realisation of all that mankind is capable of. “We thought that everyone was the same, that the decades of humanity in Europe were the values we all lived by. That turned out not to be the case.” News of atrocities in Bucha, Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Mariupol have unfolded like a bad film, she says. “It’s frightening to realise this thin enamel of civilisation is not shared by people living alongside us, not shared by the monsters of Bucha.” She goes on: “Mariupol can happen anywhere at any time in any country. Now I really think that anything is possible.”

As the world woke up to the horrors of war in Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky became a figurehead of the free world. Many have remarked on his extraordinary evolution from showman to international statesman, but Zelenska says she has not been surprised by it. “Volodymyr was always someone I could rely on. That simply became more obvious to more people.” Before the war, she used to take it personally when Volodymyr was criticised. But he was always brave enough to be himself, she says. “It’s an illusion that an actor remains an actor. He’s as open as a human being can be. I can read his face like a book, and I’m sure you can too.”


The couple didn’t see each other for over two months. Like other Ukrainians, Zelenska watched her husband’s daily speeches to the nation on social media – she was impressed by them even if, she suggests, the finished product should have been half the length. “Volodymyr always says I criticise him too much, that I never praise him enough,” she allows herself a rare bellow of laughter. She also observed her husband’s blooming facial hair (trimmed back since she returned to Kyiv recently). His beard reminded her of happier times: summer holidays when filming was over and he could let himself go. In wartime, it meant something else.

The pair spoke regularly during their time apart, and he’d chat with the kids “about all sorts of things, even just nonsense”. But it was the first lady who sat with her son as he did his homework, and coaxed her daughter through her final year of school. She made the meals, not that that was a big change: her husband was always a weekend cook, a meat-on-sticks kind of man.

“Volodymyr always says I criticise him too much, that I never praise him enough”
When Volodymyr became president in 2019, Zelenska took on initiatives appropriate to a first lady: improving school meals, promoting Ukrainian culture, tackling gender inequality. To hold such a role during wartime has added a unique set of pressures. She talks of others experiencing trauma, but she too feels it. She wouldn’t wish the situation on anybody. “No one wants to be at the epicentre of these terrible events,” she says. She stopped writing scripts – this was no time for comedy – and diverted her energies into evacuating vulnerable children and rolling out psychological support. Last year she convened a network of first ladies – now she mobilised this group to help arrange treatment abroad for hundreds of ill and injured children. Jill Biden made a surprise visit to Ukraine in May; Brigitte Macron greeted a flight of evacuees arriving in Paris: “The plane was full of terrified mums and kids, and to see her climb on board was a wonderful gesture.”


Zelenska worries that, with the flight of so many Ukrainians abroad, much of the country’s potential has disappeared. But the future is almost too frightening to think about, she says. For now, every Ukrainian has to protect what they have, “to survive and live at any cost”. Like Zelenska herself, many have already returned from havens elsewhere and are now daring to live something of a normal life. Yet “the idea that it’s an ordinary summer is an illusion”. War rages in the east. Atrocities unfold. And everyone knows that life is on hold – including her own. She still does not see her husband more than once or twice a week.

Like other parents, Zelenska fears for the next generation. The most unfortunate ones are receiving their young in body bags. Zelenska knows she is lucky to have her children close by. Her daughter is about to turn 18, and will soon go to university in Kyiv. Her son has longer to go before reaching that milestone: “I really hope that when he’s 18, we will have had many years of living in a free and peaceful country,” says Zelenska. At present, life – and Ukraine – seem a long way from that. “The most frightening thing of all is that he tells everyone he wants to be a soldier.”■

Oliver Carroll is a correspondent for The Economist in Ukraine. You can read the rest of our coverage of the war here

photographs: franco pagetti / vii agency


"我们的儿子想当兵"：对乌克兰第一夫人的采访
奥莱娜-泽兰斯卡谈战争、家庭教育和俄罗斯的杀手组织

2022年6月19日（2022年6月21日更新）。


作者：奥利弗-卡罗尔

乌克兰总统府邸的铁丝网、沙袋和狙击手阵地成为拍照的戏剧性背景。但奥莱娜-泽兰斯卡出现时却显得很疲惫，她身着飘逸的电光蓝西装，手里拿着一双高跟鞋，准备拍照。乌克兰第一夫人承认自己是一个不情愿接受采访的人。

这与她对媒体的渴望，与她更欢快的一半形成了明显的对比。但是，当一个熟悉的、沙哑的声音从一扇敞开的门后面吼出来时，她的心情就好了起来。"我听说你在这栋楼里。" 总统出现时面带微笑，然后在看到记者时脸色变得很难看，他似乎没有料到这些记者会来。五分钟后，照片拍摄变成了沃洛基米尔-泽伦斯基的表演。"我想看看我的妻子，现在你们让我工作，"他对我打趣道，然后转身走向镜头。"你也想要我们的脸，而不仅仅是我们的背？"


泽兰斯卡说，从他和两个朋友同时向泽兰斯卡和她的两个朋友求婚的那一刻起，和沃洛迪米尔在一起总是一场冒险，当时他们都是二十多岁的年轻人，在一辆白色的小巴上一起旅行。"女孩们听着，我们已经聊过了，这就是将要发生的事情，"现年44岁的泽伦斯卡是这样回忆他的提议的。这对高中恋人已经约会了八年，但这并不是一见钟情，泽伦斯卡说。她不确定自己一开始是否喜欢他。"他只是一个我认识的男孩，一个我看到从七年级到十一年级的变化的人"。两人因其幽默感（她说，她的幽默感比他的好）和一群共同的朋友而结合在一起，这些朋友后来组成了Kvartal 95，这家娱乐公司使沃洛迪米尔出名。对于小巴的提议，不存在泽兰斯卡同意与否的问题，更不存在有人下跪的问题。"这是命运，也是所有的一切"。这三对夫妇最终在2003年夏天相隔一周结婚。

她对他的日常视频印象深刻--但认为它们应该是一半的长度。

他们在乌克兰南部的工业城市克里维耶里（Kryvyi Rih）并肩成长，现在靠近战争的前线。她还记得与沃洛迪米尔和他们的朋友一起度过的浪漫夏天，听着音乐，在河边闲逛。他们选择了喜剧事业--她写剧本，沃洛迪米尔表演--后来将他们推向了基辅的璀璨灯光下，这里从此成为他们的家。正是在那里，她的丈夫在一部受欢迎的电视连续剧《人民公仆》中扮演了一个由教师转变为总统的角色，开始大胆地争取在2019年成为真正的总统。他们不可能想到乌克兰会发生什么。"我们太天真了，"她说。"我们以为我们可以通过诚实的工作和嫁接赢得胜利。结果发现比这要复杂得多。"

2022年2月24日，泽兰斯卡醒来时天还没黑，她以为自己听到了烟火。她的丈夫已经在隔壁的房间里，衣着整齐。"开始了，"他说，然后立即离开。Zelenska的任务是告诉她9岁的儿子Kyrylo和17岁的女儿Oleksandra，发生了什么。她告诉自己，她不能哭，因为她走在走廊上，浑身颤抖。但当她走到孩子们的房间时，她意识到他们已经醒了，"知道了一切"。


她告诉他们准备好去乡下旅行："我必须表明一切都很好，很酷，这是一次冒险"。当天晚上，他们三人在远离首都的一个秘密地点；经过一天的假笑，她的脸颊很疼。

第一夫人说，在后者用完之前，她靠肾上腺素和缬草的混合作用熬过了早期的日子。她试着不去想她的丈夫被列为俄罗斯打击小组的头号目标--或者她自己和她的孩子成为第二号目标。"专业人士 "会做必要的事情来保护他们所有人的安全。"我明白，我什么都不懂，但要对孩子们负责，需要对这种情况做出反应。" 与全国各地的乌克兰人一样，总统家庭突然按性别划分。他穿上了军绿色的衣服，向世界展示他的战斗面貌。她保持着私人的警惕，照顾着家庭前线。


每当警报声响起，泽兰斯卡和她的孩子们就会冲到防空洞下；上上下下，再上上下下。她无法入睡，经常看着她9岁的孩子打盹或玩手机。有一次，她打起了瞌睡，却被儿子吵醒了。"妈妈，"他说，"该去收容所了。" 她的许多朋友--演员和作家--都报名参加了乌克兰的军队和领土防御。当她的丈夫实行戒严法，禁止任何18-60岁的男子离开该国时，许多妇女带着孩子逃离；其他人，像她一样，找到了远离前线的战时角色。

"文明是一层薄薄的薄膜，很快就被撕裂了。意识到它不被生活在我们身边的人所分享，不被布卡的怪物所分享，这让人感到害怕"

泽兰斯卡说："文明是一张 "很快就被撕裂的薄膜"。她对俄国人可能做的事情--对她的家庭、对她的国家--的直接恐惧变成了对人类能够做的一切的恍然大悟。"我们以为每个人都是一样的，欧洲几十年的人性是我们所有的生活价值观。事实证明，情况并非如此。" 她说，在布卡、切尔尼戈夫、哈尔科夫和马里乌波尔发生的暴行的新闻就像一部糟糕的电影一样展开。"意识到这层薄薄的文明珐琅并不为生活在我们身边的人所共享，也不为布卡的怪物所共享，这让人感到害怕"。她继续说。"马里乌波尔可能在任何国家的任何时间发生。现在我真的认为一切皆有可能"。

随着世界对乌克兰战争的恐怖意识的觉醒，沃洛季米尔-泽伦斯基成为自由世界的代表人物。许多人对他从表演者到国际政治家的非凡演变发表了评论，但泽伦斯基说她对此并不感到惊讶。"沃罗季米尔一直是我可以依赖的人。这对更多人来说只是变得更加明显。战前，当沃洛基米尔受到批评时，她常常耿耿于怀。但是他总是勇敢地做自己，她说。"一个演员仍然是一个演员，这是个错觉。他就像一个人一样开放。我可以像读一本书一样读懂他的脸，我相信你也可以。"


这对夫妇有两个多月没有见面。像其他乌克兰人一样，泽兰斯卡在社交媒体上观看了她丈夫每天对全国的演讲--她对这些演讲印象深刻，即使她建议，成品应该是一半的长度。"沃洛基米尔总是说我批评他太多，说我对他的赞美不够，"她允许自己难得地大笑起来。她还观察了她丈夫茂盛的面部毛发（自从她最近回到基辅后就修剪了）。他的胡子让她想起了更快乐的时光：当拍摄结束后的暑假，他可以放开自己。在战时，它意味着别的东西。

在他们分开的这段时间里，两人经常交谈，他和孩子们聊天，"谈论各种各样的事情，甚至只是废话"。但是，是第一夫人在儿子做作业时坐在他身边，并在女儿上学的最后一年哄着她。她做饭，这并不是一个大的变化：她的丈夫总是在周末做饭，是那种吃肉的人。

"沃洛基米尔总是说我批评他太多，说我对他的赞扬不够。
当沃洛迪米尔在2019年成为总统时，泽兰斯卡采取了适合第一夫人的举措：改善学校膳食，促进乌克兰文化，解决性别不平等问题。在战时担任这样一个角色，增加了一系列独特的压力。她谈到其他人正在经历创伤，但她也感觉到了。她不希望任何人遇到这种情况。"她说："没有人愿意处于这些可怕事件的中心。她停止了写剧本--现在不是写喜剧的时候--并将精力转移到疏散脆弱的儿童和开展心理支持上。去年，她召集了一个第一夫人网络--现在她动员这个团体帮助安排数百名生病和受伤的儿童到国外治疗。吉尔-拜登在5月对乌克兰进行了突然访问；布丽吉特-马克龙迎接了抵达巴黎的疏散人员航班："飞机上坐满了受惊吓的妈妈和孩子，看到她爬上飞机是一个美妙的姿态。"


泽伦斯卡担心，随着这么多乌克兰人逃到国外，这个国家的大部分潜力已经消失了。但她说，未来几乎让人不敢想了。现在，每个乌克兰人都必须保护他们所拥有的东西，"不惜一切代价生存和生活"。像泽伦斯卡本人一样，许多人已经从其他地方的避难所返回，现在敢于过一些正常的生活。然而，"认为这是一个普通夏天的想法是一种幻觉"。战争在东部肆虐。暴行不断发生。每个人都知道，生活被搁置了 - 包括她自己。她每周与丈夫见面的次数仍然不超过一到两次。

像其他父母一样，泽兰斯卡为下一代感到担忧。最不幸的人正在用尸袋接收他们的孩子。泽兰斯卡知道她很幸运，因为她的孩子就在身边。她的女儿即将年满18岁，并将很快在基辅上大学。她的儿子在达到这一里程碑之前还有更长的路要走。"泽兰斯卡说："我真的希望，当他18岁时，我们将在一个自由和和平的国家里生活多年。目前，生活--以及乌克兰--似乎离这个目标还有一段距离。"最可怕的是，他告诉所有人他想成为一名士兵。

奥利弗-卡罗尔是《经济学人》驻乌克兰的记者。你可以在这里阅读我们对这场战争的其他报道

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