2021.10.26 知无知

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How to Know That You Know Nothing
Arthur Brooks and the Harvard psychology professor Dr. Ellen Langer discuss the importance of curiosity and living in the moment—and how an illusion of stability may be holding you back from exactly that.

By Rebecca Rashid and Arthur C. Brooks
Woman in crowd with haze around her
Mark Peterson / Corbis / Getty / The Atlantic
OCTOBER 26, 2021
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Updated at 12:45 p.m. ET on November 12, 2021.
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If there’s one thing we might regret at the end of life, it’s that we missed out on moments that mattered—not because we weren’t physically there, but because our mind wandered off to some unknown place.

In this episode of How to Build a Happy Life, we explore why it’s uniquely challenging to “live in the moment,” how we limit our own curiosity by assuming that we know best, and why the illusion of stability pulls us from living every day fully, and in the moment. A conversation with the Harvard University psychology professor Dr. Ellen Langer helps us think through a daily struggle: How do I stay present?

This episode was produced by Rebecca Rashid and hosted by Arthur Brooks. Editing by A.C. Valdez. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Sound design by Michael Raphael.

Be part of How to Build a Happy Life. Write to us at howtopodcast@theatlantic.com or leave us a voicemail at 925.967.2091.

Music by Trevor Kowalski (“Lion’s Drift,” “This Valley of Ours,” “Una Noche de Luces”), Stationary Sign (“Loose in the Park”), and Spectacles Wallet and Watch (“Last Pieces”).


This transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Arthur C. Brooks: A big part of happiness is learning to live in the moment. What does that actually mean? And more importantly, how do we do it? It turns out that living in the moment, or at least being fully alive right now has two components: mindfulness and curiosity.

You need to figure out a way to focus on the present, to be really experiencing your current time frame, as opposed to thinking about the past or thinking about the future. Now, there’s a reason that that’s hard to do. The human brain makes it possible for us to be in other time periods than in the current moment. I can imagine that I’m in the future, practicing future scenarios in my life. That’s called prospection. That’s about living in the future.

Other people tend to think about the past a lot, and one of the things that we know from research on the elderly is they tend to be kind of retrospective, thinking about the past. The problem is, if you’re excessively prospective and/or retrospective, it can crowd out your ability to be alive right now.

Dr. Ellen Langer: Lots of people confuse what I do with meditation, but meditation is a practice; mindfulness is the result of that practice. The mindfulness that we study is immediate. It’s simply noticing new things. And in the process of noticing new things, that puts you in the moment. You have all these people who say “be in the present,” and that’s great, but it’s an empty suggestion. And even simpler than this, if one deeply appreciates uncertainty—recognizing everything is always changing, everything looks different from different perspectives, so you can’t know. And when you recognize that you can’t know or you don’t know, you tune in. When you think you do know, you don’t pay any attention.

Brooks: The big theme that I really want to talk about here is how to enjoy our lives more. One of the things that you emphasize in your work a lot is that we don’t enjoy our lives enough, because we’re not actually there. What does that mean?

Dr. Langer: Over these 40-some-odd years, we find that mindlessness is pervasive. Most of us are not there, and they are not there to know they’re not there. You know, the only way some people realize they experience this is imagine you’re driving and you want to get off at exit 28, and all of a sudden, you see you’re at exit 36. So then you say, Wow, where was I? What I mean by “you’re not there” is that you are more or less behaving like a robot. Everybody has had that experience.

You know, you are miserable, and somebody says, “Hi, how are you?” And you say, “Fine, thank you.” And you’re not aware of it, and you’re not trying to hide it. Most of what we do is done on, as it’s called, automatic pilot, but the mindlessness goes far beyond that.

I wanted to write a book a long time ago, Arthur—I never wrote this one—that was called Is There Life Before Death?, because I found, you know, all these people worrying about life after death. Many people come alive, sadly, after they get some terrible diagnosis or they have a stroke or they find out they have cancer. When I speak to people who are miserable or whatever, I simply tell them that all you need to do is take care of the moment, just right this second. And if you keep doing that, then over the course of the day, you know, you’ve had a fine time.

Brooks: Why is it that we’re so distracted from the present? What is distracting us from actually noticing things around us?

Dr. Langer: Well, we have an illusion of stability. We think things are staying still. So if you’ve seen it once, you’ve seen it; you don’t need to keep paying attention to it. But there’s something I think that needs to be added, which will explain why people keep doing this. Many people pretend because they think they should know. They think, You know, so therefore, I don’t want you to know that I don’t know. And here’s the big secret for everybody: Nobody knows. You change from making a personal attribution for not knowing—I don’t know, but it’s knowable. Therefore, I’ll pretend; I’ll feel stupid, insecure—to a universal attribution: I don’t know. You don’t know. Nobody knows. Okay, so now let’s find out together and explore together. If you think you know something, there’s no reason to pay attention.

Anything can be made exciting; anything can be made boring. I picked up these kids—this is back years ago, when it was okay to pick up hitchhikers. And I was in Italy, and they were wearing nyc T-shirts, so you knew they weren’t from New York.

And so I picked them up, and I asked them, “How did you like New York?” And one of them answered right away and said, you know, he didn’t like it at all. It was boring. There was nothing to do. There are few places, to my mind, that are more exciting. And if you took me and you put me in the middle of a wheat field, I probably would look at it like, Well, it’s all the same, but not to a farmer.

Brooks: Let’s go to the future. So, you know, one of the things that I talk an awful lot about with Marty Seligman is prospection, and Marty believes that we shouldn’t be called Homo sapiens. We should be called Homo prospectus.

One point, he had this dispute with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, where the Dalai Lama was talking about mindfulness, and he said, No, Your Holiness, it’s natural that we live in the future, especially people who are ambitious and go-getters. And it’s actually important because we have to practice future scenarios, et cetera. How can we live enough in the future to be successful but, at the same time, enjoy our lives? How do we get that balance right?

Dr. Langer: I think that everything that you’re doing because of the future is based on a mistaken notion about predictability. Prediction is an illusion. Now, I know Marty doesn’t believe that. Let me convince your audience just quickly. I do this with my advanced decision-making class, and I say to them, “I’ve been teaching a version of this class for the last 40 years. I’ve never missed a class. What is the likelihood I’m going to be here next week?”

It’s a small class; we go around the room. These are Harvard kids, so they don’t say 100 percent. They say ridiculous things like 97 percent, as if there’s some calculation, but essentially they’re all saying I’ll be there. Now I say, “Okay, I want each of you to give me a good reason why I won’t be there.” The first one always says, “Well, you’ve been doing it for 40 years; you’ve been there. You deserve the time off.” The next one says, “Your dog has to go to the vet.” The next one says, “You’ve got a flat tire.” And they easily come up with things.

Then I say to them, “Okay, what is the likelihood I’m going to be here next week?” And it drops to 50 percent. And when you fully realize that we don’t know, that you can plan all you want for some future event and then something else will happen that pulls you away. But if the planning for the future is giving you a happy present, that’s fine; there’s nothing lost by it. When you stick to your predictions, you’re limiting yourself rather than expanding your universe of possibilities.

Brooks: From your perspective, goal setting is valuable to the extent that it enhances the quality of your life right now.

Dr. Langer: At the moment, yes. And I think that what we want to do, and the way I describe being mindful, is to be rule, routine, and goal guided. Most of us are mindless, so we’re rule, routine, and goal governed. You don’t want to have a rule that says you do something at time one—that’s when you’re committing to that rule—when at time two, it’s totally irrelevant. Recognize that outcomes are in our heads. They’re not in events.

A simple example, you know, if you and I go to lunch and the food is good, that’s great. You and I go to lunch and the food is awful. That’s great. Presumably, I’ll eat less, and that’ll be better for my waistline. If I take the view that the event is good or bad, then I’m in this position where I do everything I can to get the good, and I run away as fast as I can from anything bad. And once I recognize that the good/bad is in my head, I can be still and just enjoy whatever happens.

Brooks: So you and I are going back to the classroom in person for the first time in a super long time, and let’s say that your fall class, weirdly unexpectedly, goes really, really poorly. What’s your strategy then, because you’re not going to get stressed?

Dr. Langer: I have a one-liner that friends of mine put on their refrigerators, which is “Ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience?” Too often we respond to things. You know, if the class didn’t go well, Oh my God, my life’s going to be—no, of course not. Let’s say you and I are going out and we have a bad conversation and it’s Oh my God, that’s going to destroy the relationship! No. No relationship is going to be made or fall apart based on one situation. No life is going to depend on failing one test or giving one bad class.

Brooks: Ellen Langer. What a joy. What a gift that you’ve given to our audience today, and what a gift that you’ve given me. So thank you very much.

Dr. Langer: It’s my pleasure, Arthur. Stay well.

Brooks: Each week on the show, we like to pay homage to our listeners and their unique insights on happiness. We put out a call to action for listeners to answer this question: When is the last time you remember being truly happy?

Listener submission: Hey there! My name is Ben; I live in Washington, D.C. Well, what is happiness? I’ve found bliss and peace while doing kind of really engrossing sports like skiing or kiteboarding. I’ve found joy and elation on the peaks of mountains after hiking them, and the kind of runner’s high that comes after exercise and accomplishment. Happiness is a longer struggle, though. Happiness is a couple good days with friends, appreciation from people who it matters to be appreciated by. It’s things going right when you weren’t sure if they would or not. It’s a clean apartment. It’s balance in your life, both physically and mentally, and in terms of your expectations. I don’t know if there is any one time when I would say that I’m truly happy. Happiness is when I am where I need to be and balanced and lifted up by the foundations that facilitate that happiness.

Brooks: Today’s exercise is called intention without attachment. Now, you’ve been hearing from Dr. Langer that mindfulness is critically important for living a good and balanced life, and it’s also incredibly important for happiness, in no small part because when you’re not mindful, you’re missing your life.

Mindfulness, according to Dr. Ellen Langer, is not an exotic thing. She defined it as simply noticing new things—being fully present and noticing things that are happening around us. You want to be mindful on the train, put down your phone. Stop thinking about the future. Put your hands in your lap. Look out the window and say, Huh, trees. Now, you can get into much more sort of transcendental or meditative understandings of mindfulness, but that’s a good way to remember it.

There’s a problem, however, if mindfulness is your only goal. Happiness also relies on prospection. It is the living in the future that’s connected to a lot of other psychologists’ research, and when you’re optimistic about the future, that prospection is really important to happiness as well. These two ideas, they seem kind of in tension, don’t they? You want to be mindful, but you want to be prospective at the same time. So I ask myself, Can I be both a goal-oriented person and a mindful person? Or do I have to choose? Or is there some way that I can get both? Well, the answer is that you can get both.

No. 1, use learned optimism to dream up and set long-term goals. So say to yourself, for example, “Ten years from today, here’s what I want my life to look like.” What does it look like? Make it really clear in your mind; write them down. Learned optimism to set long-term goals.

Here’s step two: Now break those goals into sub-steps to get to that 10-year goal. Or maybe it’s a five-year goal. You decide what your time frame is, but to get to it, Where do I need to be one year from now? Where do I need to be in one month to get to one year? Where do I need to be in one week to get to one month? Break your big goal into a bunch of little goals with respect to time.

Now here’s step three. Here’s where the mindfulness comes back: Live in day-tight compartments—that sets a goal for being fully alive over the next 24 hours. By the way, I didn’t make up this term “day-tight compartments.” That was [popularized] by a self-improvement author from the ’30s named Dale Carnegie. And this was one of his pieces of advice, to live in day-tight compartments. If you want to be happy, you have to be alive. If you’re going to be alive, you have to notice what’s going on. And to do that, you can’t always be living in the future.

Correction: This episode misstates the origin of the term day-tight compartments. Dale Carnegie popularized the phrase, but it was created by William Osler.

Rebecca Rashid is a producer at The Atlantic.



如何知道你一无所知
阿瑟-布鲁克斯和哈佛大学心理学教授艾伦-兰格博士讨论了好奇心和活在当下的重要性--以及稳定的幻觉如何可能阻碍你实现这一目标。

丽贝卡-拉希德和阿瑟-C-布鲁克斯报道
人群中的女人，周围有雾气
Mark Peterson / Corbis / Getty / The Atlantic
10月26日, 2021
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更新于美国东部时间2021年11月12日下午12:45。
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如果说我们在生命的最后时刻有什么遗憾的话，那就是我们错过了重要的时刻--不是因为我们的身体不在那里，而是因为我们的思想游离于某个未知的地方。

在本期《如何打造幸福人生》节目中，我们将探讨为什么 "活在当下 "具有独特的挑战性，我们如何通过假设自己最了解自己来限制自己的好奇心，以及为什么稳定的幻觉会让我们无法充分地活在每一天，活在当下。与哈佛大学心理学教授艾伦-兰格博士的对话帮助我们思考每天的挣扎。我怎样才能保持当下？

本集由Rebecca Rashid制作，Arthur Brooks主持。编辑：A.C. Valdez。事实核查：Ena Alvarado。声音设计：Michael Raphael。

成为《如何建立幸福生活》的一部分。请写信给我们：howtopodcast@theatlantic.com 或给我们留下语音邮件：925.967.2091。

音乐由Trevor Kowalski（"Lion's Drift"、"This Valley of Ours"、"Una Noche de Luces"）、Stationary Sign（"Loose in the Park"）和Spectacles Wallet and Watch（"Last Pieces"）。


为保证篇幅和清晰度，本实录经过了轻度编辑。
阿瑟-C-布鲁克斯（Arthur C. Brooks）。幸福的一个重要部分是学会活在当下。这实际上意味着什么？更重要的是，我们如何做到这一点？事实证明，活在当下，或者至少是完全活在当下有两个组成部分：正念和好奇心。

你需要找出一种方法来关注当下，真正体验你当前的时间框架，而不是思考过去或思考未来。现在，这是有原因的，这很难做到。人类的大脑使我们有可能在其他时间段而不是在当前的时刻。我可以想象我是在未来，在我的生活中练习未来的情景。这就是所谓的展望。那是关于生活在未来。

其他人倾向于经常思考过去，我们从对老年人的研究中知道的一件事是他们倾向于回顾过去，思考过去。问题是，如果你过度地展望和/或回顾过去，就会挤掉你现在活着的能力。

艾伦-朗格博士。很多人把我做的事情和冥想混为一谈，但冥想是一种练习；正念是这种练习的结果。我们研究的正念是直接的。它只是注意到新的事物。而在注意到新事物的过程中，它使你处于当下。你有所有这些人说 "要在当下"，这很好，但这是个空洞的建议。比这更简单的是，如果一个人深深地欣赏不确定性--认识到一切总是在变化，一切从不同的角度看都是不同的，所以你不可能知道。而当你认识到你不能知道或你不知道时，你就会调适。当你认为你知道的时候，你就不会去关注了。

布鲁克斯。我在这里真正想谈的大主题是如何更加享受我们的生活。你在工作中经常强调的一件事是，我们没有充分享受我们的生活，因为我们实际上并不在那里。那是什么意思？

兰格博士。在这40多年的时间里，我们发现无意识是普遍存在的。我们大多数人都不在那里，他们不在那里就不知道自己不在那里。你知道，一些人意识到他们经历的唯一方式是想象你在开车，你想在28号出口下车，突然，你看到你在36号出口。所以你会说，哇，我到哪里了？我所说的 "你不在那里 "的意思是，你或多或少表现得像一个机器人。每个人都有过这种经历。

你知道，你很痛苦，有人说，"嗨，你好吗？" 而你说，"很好，谢谢你"。你没有意识到这一点，你也没有试图隐藏它。我们所做的大部分事情都是在所谓的自动驾驶中完成的，但这种无意识远远超出了这个范围。

很久以前我就想写一本书，阿瑟，我从来没有写过这本书，叫做《死前有生命吗》，因为我发现，你知道，所有这些人都在担心死后的生命。许多人在得到一些可怕的诊断或中风或发现自己得了癌症后，悲哀地活了过来。当我与那些痛苦或其他的人交谈时，我简单地告诉他们，你需要做的就是照顾好当下，就在这一秒。如果你一直这样做，那么在一天的时间里，你知道，你已经度过了一段美好的时光。

布鲁克斯。为什么我们会对当下如此分心？是什么分散了我们的注意力，使我们无法真正注意到周围的事物？

兰格博士。嗯，我们有一种稳定的幻觉。我们认为事物是保持静止的。所以如果你看过一次，你就看过了；你不需要继续关注它。但有一点我认为需要补充，这将解释为什么人们一直这样做。许多人假装是因为他们认为自己应该知道。他们认为，你知道，因此，我不想让你知道我不知道。而这里是每个人的大秘密。没有人知道。你改变了对不知道的个人归因，我不知道，但它是可以知道的。因此，我会假装；我会感到愚蠢，没有安全感--变成一种普遍的归因。我不知道。你不知道。没有人知道。好，那么现在让我们一起发现，一起探索。如果你认为你知道什么，就没有理由去关注。

任何事情都可以变得令人兴奋；任何事情都可以变得无聊。我搭上了这些孩子--这要追溯到多年前，那时搭顺风车是可以的。我当时在意大利，他们穿着纽约的T恤衫，所以你知道他们不是来自纽约。

于是我接了他们，并问他们："你喜欢纽约吗？" 其中一个人立即回答说，你知道，他根本不喜欢它。它很无聊。没有什么可做的。在我看来，很少有地方比这更令人兴奋。如果你把我放在一片麦田中间，我可能会这样看：嗯，都是一样的，但对农民来说不是。

布鲁克斯。让我们去看看未来。所以，你知道，我和马蒂-塞利格曼谈了很多的事情，其中之一就是展望，马蒂认为，我们不应该被称为智人。我们应该被称为 "展望者"。

有一点，他与达赖喇嘛尊者有这样的争论，达赖喇嘛正在谈论正念，他说，不，尊者，我们生活在未来是很自然的，特别是那些有野心和有追求的人。而这实际上是很重要的，因为我们必须练习未来的情景，诸如此类。我们如何才能在未来生活得足够成功，但同时又能享受我们的生活？我们如何取得这种平衡？

朗格博士：我认为，你因为未来而做的一切，都是基于对可预测性的错误观念。预测是一种幻觉。现在，我知道马蒂并不相信这一点。让我快速说服你的听众。我在我的高级决策课上这样做，我对他们说："在过去的40年里，我一直在教这个班的一个版本。我从来没有错过一堂课。我下周来这里的可能性有多大？"

这是一个小班；我们在房间里转了一圈。这些都是哈佛的孩子，所以他们不会说百分之百。他们会说97%这样的荒唐话，好像有什么计算方法一样，但基本上他们都在说我会在那里。现在我说，"好吧，我希望你们每个人都能给我一个好的理由，为什么我不会在那里。" 第一个人总是说，"好吧，你已经做了40年了；你已经在那里了。你应该得到休息的时间。" 下一个人说，"你的狗必须去看兽医。" 下一个人说，"你的轮胎爆了。" 他们很容易就想出了一些事情。

然后我对他们说，"好吧，我下周在这里的可能性是多少？" 然后它下降到50%。当你完全意识到我们不知道，你可以为一些未来的事件做所有的计划，然后会有其他事情发生，把你拉走。但是，如果对未来的规划给你带来了快乐的现在，那就好了；这没有什么损失。当你坚持你的预测时，你是在限制自己，而不是扩大你的可能性宇宙。

布鲁克斯。从你的角度来看，目标设定的价值在于它能提高你现在的生活质量。

兰格博士。在目前，是的。我认为，我们想要做的，以及我描述正念的方式，是规则、常规和目标引导。我们大多数人都是无意识的，所以我们是规则、常规和目标指导的。你不希望有一条规则，说你在第一时间做某件事情，那是你承诺遵守该规则的时候，而在第二时间，它却完全不相关。认识到结果是在我们的头脑中。它们不在事件中。

一个简单的例子，你知道，如果你和我去吃午饭，食物很好，这很好。你和我去吃午饭，食物很糟糕。那很好。据推测，我会吃得更少，这对我的腰围会更好。如果我认为事件是好的或坏的，那么我就处于这样的位置：我尽我所能去获得好的东西，并且我尽可能快地逃离任何坏的东西。而一旦我认识到，好/坏都在我的脑子里，我就可以静下心来，只是享受发生的一切。

布鲁克斯。所以，你和我要在超级长的时间里第一次亲自回到课堂上，假设你的秋季班，奇怪的是出乎意料，真的非常非常糟糕。那你的策略是什么，因为你不会有压力？

兰格博士：我有一句单行本，我的朋友把它贴在冰箱上，那就是 "问问自己，这是一场悲剧还是一个不便？" 我们常常对事情做出反应。你知道，如果上课不顺利，哦，我的上帝，我的生活会变得--不，当然不会。比方说，你和我要出去，我们有一个不好的谈话，而且是哦，我的上帝，这将会破坏关系！你知道吗？不，没有任何关系会因为一个情况而建立或破裂。没有一个人的生活会取决于一次考试的失败或上一堂糟糕的课。

布鲁克斯。艾伦-朗格。多么令人高兴。你今天给我们的听众的礼物是什么，你给我的礼物也是什么。所以非常感谢你。

朗格博士：这是我的荣幸，阿瑟。保持良好的状态。

布鲁克斯。每周在节目中，我们都喜欢向我们的听众和他们对幸福的独特见解表示敬意。我们向听众发出行动号召，请他们回答这个问题。你记得自己最后一次真正快乐是什么时候？

听众提交。嘿，你们好！我叫本。我叫本，住在华盛顿特区，那么，什么是幸福？我在做那种非常投入的运动时发现了幸福和平静，比如滑雪或风筝冲浪。我在登山后的山峰上发现了快乐和欣喜，还有运动和成就后的那种跑者的兴奋。不过，幸福是一种更漫长的挣扎。幸福是与朋友一起度过的几天美好时光，是来自那些需要被欣赏的人的赞赏。它是在你不确定是否会发生的情况下，事情进展顺利。它是一个干净的公寓。它是你生活中的平衡，无论是身体上还是精神上，以及在你的期望方面。我不知道是否有任何一个时间，我可以说我是真正的幸福。幸福是当我在我需要的地方，被促进这种幸福的基础所平衡和提升的时候。

布鲁克斯。今天的练习被称为 "不执着的意图"。现在，你已经从兰格博士那里听到，正念对于过上良好和平衡的生活至关重要，而且它对于幸福也非常重要，这在很大程度上是因为当你没有正念的时候，你就会错过你的生活。

艾伦-朗格博士认为，正念并不是一种奇特的东西。她把它定义为简单地注意到新事物--完全在场，注意到我们周围发生的事情。你想在火车上保持正念，放下你的手机。停止思考未来。把你的手放在你的腿上。看着窗外，说："啊，树。现在，你可以进入更多关于正念的超验或冥想的理解，但这是一个记住它的好方法。

然而，如果正念是你唯一的目标，那就有一个问题。幸福也依赖于展望。它是生活在未来，与很多其他心理学家的研究有关，当你对未来感到乐观时，这种展望对幸福也真的很重要。这两个想法，它们似乎有点紧张，不是吗？你想做个有心人，但你同时也想做个有预见性的人。所以我问自己，我能否既是一个目标导向的人，又是一个有思想的人？或者我必须做出选择？或者有什么方法可以让我同时得到这两者？好吧，答案是，你可以同时得到这两者。

第1，利用学到的乐观主义来梦想和设定长期目标。所以对自己说，例如，"从今天起十年后，我希望我的生活是这样的"。它是什么样子的？让它在你的脑海中真正清晰；把它们写下来。学会了乐观主义，以设定长期目标。

这里是第二步。现在把这些目标分成若干子步骤，以达到这个10年目标。或者也许是五年的目标。你决定你的时间框架是什么，但要达到它，从现在起一年内我需要在哪里？为了达到一年的目标，我需要在一个月内达到什么程度？我需要在一周内达到什么程度才能达到一个月的目标？把你的大目标分解成一堆与时间有关的小目标。

现在是第三步。这里是心态回归的地方。以日为单位的生活--这为在未来24小时内完全活着设定了一个目标。顺便说一下，这个术语 "日间密室 "不是我编的。这是30年代一位名叫戴尔-卡耐基（Dale Carnegie）的自我提高作家[推广]的。这是他的建议之一，生活在狭小的空间里。如果你想获得幸福，你必须活着。如果你要活着，你必须注意到正在发生的事情。而要做到这一点，你不能总是生活在未来。

更正一下。这一集误报了 "日间密室 "一词的起源。戴尔-卡耐基推广了这个短语，但它是由威廉-奥斯勒创造的。

丽贝卡-拉希德是《大西洋》杂志的制片人。